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Michele Christensen  0:05  

Hello darling!   Welcome back to Sex. Love.  Power.  I’m Michele Lisenbury Christensen and I invite you here each week to talk about those three things because this is a confusing-as-hell time to be alive in a body, trying to sustain a vibrant committed relationship,  especially if you’re a smart, make-it-happen woman who cares a ton about her family and her community and her work in the world.  It’s a LOT and cultivating  your turn-on, your pleasure, and intimacy with another person requires some real intentionality and attention.  So.  This is where we dig in, give that attention, set those intentions, and talk about the transformative ideas and the concrete actions that will help you create  the love and sex you really want right inside the life you have. 

It’s time for the first “Ask Michele” episode!   The questions have been streaming in and I want to get to some of them today.  We’re going to do these  episodes periodically, so please do keep the questions coming!  You can submit them in the question thread in our private community, which you will find at Conscious Couples’ Circle, or by calling 206-659-9865.  That number and that link are in the show notes at lisenbury.com/episode/010. 

Today’s a treat for me because I get to hang out with my wonderful business manager Cheryl Wise Sweeney.  Yes, WISE is her middle name!  And it’s oh-so-true.  In addition to being an organizational whiz, she is a relentlessly supportive person and such loving presence for me, our team, and all our clients and students and we are so blessed to have her.  So I’m just tickled to introduce her on the podcast for the first time!  Welcome Cheryl.

Cheryl Wise Sweeney  1:42  

Hello dear Michele, thank you for having me. 

Michele Christensen  1:44  

Thanks for being here. So Cheryl's picked some questions to ask me. 

Cheryl Wise Sweeney  1:48  

Okay, beautiful listener, you're going to want to hear these and Michele's answers. If  you want to ask for more but aren't sure what to ask for, you're afraid your relationship will become too “you" driven, if you start making more requests, you get frustrated by your partner's help around the house, because you can't actually rely on it to the point that are truly lightens your own load. Are we ready? Here we go. 

Our first listener said, "I'm 35. And my husband is 40. We've been together for 15 years married for 11. He's doing life in 2020 with a third job search and as many years. I'm doing life in 2020 with my own company, my dad's five years of critical illness and poor business decisions. "

"We've done SO much of the work you've recommended (I EAT UP your newsletter, social media, and mini courses!). I think we're at the point where I can invite him deeper, but that's where the wheels come off my joyful attempt at a sprint forward:  a) I don't know what I really want,   b) I'm afraid he'll say no or roll his eyes at me like I'm wasting his time and mine, and   c) I don't want the relationship to become too me-sided.  You've given me so much language - I've been "inviting him in", been listening more deeply, having fun, and calming my psychic rummaging... what could the next step look like?  Grateful for you and ALL you do! You're a treasure and a mentor."

Michele Christensen  3:18  

Thank you so much for your kind words.  First of all, I’m glad you’ve gained so much from my work.  You asked what the next step could look like but nested in there I think I hear a couple of other questions that are probably pretty common among our listeners. So I'm going to answer all of them.  

First, I heard you asking, ”what do I do to go to the next level when I don't know what I really want?”  And when you don't know what you really want, you're probably thinking about that in a really global way. And the key there is to back it up. Inside our body at any given moment there is an urge, a yearning, so not what do you want with a capital W but what do you desire right now? What are you hungry for next? What do you desire this evening with your partner? What if you're together physically, whether that's really erotic or just cozy? What would feel good right now? Oh, would you rub my shoulders? Or can I put my head on your chest? Whatever your urge is, talk about THAT.

Reach for the closest desire and let that unfold for you the largest desires. As you start to notice those patterns of your micro desires, you can start to ask the pattern, “what are you pointing at?” What are my bigger wants, my bigger yearnings?” As we go on to the other questions I heard, you'll see how those can kind of fit in with kind of a guided vision for your relationship. Because I think that our desires talk to us. They're not just the product of our ego or our personality, controlling something. I think a lot of times our deepest yearnings are marching orders from the divine and they've been written on our hearts in a language that's so compelling, and that is the language of our desire. And I think that life does that to us, writes us those marching orders so that we will do those things not just to get more of what we want in a self serving way, but to serve our relationships and the people closest to us, and the world at large.   

When we're living out our desires, we are fulfilled enough and full of energy enough that we can raise our sights from our little complaints and cares to larger issues, to systemic problems, like racism and rape culture that need a ton of attention, energy, and that aren't going away without us working hard on them. So we're going to have to have lots of joy, lots of nourishment, to fuel us to do the hard work that needs to be done. So that's why I want you listening very carefully to your desires.  

The next question that I heard was, what do I do about my fear of my partner's response? What did she say Cheryl?  What would she say about what she was afraid he would do?  

That he'll roll his eyes at her. Like she's wasting his time.

Yeah. And her? Yeah. Right. And I mean, I'm afraid of that sometimes, aren't you? Yeah. 

Michele Christensen  5:57  

Like, I want to bring this up. But what's he going to say? What's he going to do? You know, the thing about our fears about their responses is, we don't know, you don't know how he'll respond. So, you know, the acronym for fear is False Evidence Appearing Real. We make up, “Oh, he's gonna be like “this. And if we just told him, I'm sure you're going to respond with this, if he said it to him that way, you'd be so insulted. Because that assumption that he'll roll his eyes, he loves you, you know, and even though he might, you might be right, it might be based on past experience, just assuming that he's going to respond that way, cuts short the potential of your relationship and his potential to respond in a loving way. 

So here's what I want you to do. Instead, when you feel nervous about that, it makes sense. I don't mean to poopoo your fear because I have it too. And I totally get it. But releasing our certainty is the very first step. I don't know how he's going to respond, but I feel a little nervous about it. Okay, fair enough. So we can preempt a response that we're really worried about, if there's something you're uncomfortable with the possibility of him doing like rolling his eyes, you might start out by framing it up and say, "I want to talk to you about something, but it's kind of vulnerable. And I'm afraid that you're like, roll your eyes, or treat me like I'm wasting your time, or I'll feel like I'm wasting my time talking to you about it." 

So open your kimono a little bit, show him some vulnerability, and then say, "will you please hear me out and promise you won't do that?" It's a wonderful way to kind of frame it up so he knows that he's not supposed to do that. That you're worried about it. And that's going to help him be a little more disciplined than he might otherwise be. You know, if somebody did that to me, in a conversation said, "Now I'm going to tell you something, I'm afraid you're gonna give me advice. So don't tell me what to do about this. Just listen to me," I'm going to do a way better job of just listening, then I might otherwise do it. 

Because I might otherwise be like, Oh, I have a thought. And I really try to always ask people's permission before advising them, because I believe in consent. And I don't think that unsolicited advice is ever helpful. But we all do better when we're given signposts about, here's how you can best communicate with me about this. So give him that chance. 

And then third, want to take this a little bit deeper, when we're concerned about how someone's going to respond. And you know, you're gonna laugh at me, you're gonna roll your eyes at me, you're gonna resist all those things, we can think of it as an opportunity to expand our capacity, like my capacity to enjoy my husband's resistance is kind of limited. That's not totally in my wheelhouse of things. I'm capable of sensations I'm capable of being thrilled by and I want to be able to embrace as wide a range of sensations as possible in this life, because I came here to live fully. So I want to be able to have fun with and get off on anything and everything. So as you go into the conversation, you can sort of recognize, ah, this is going to bring up sensations for me, some of them are going to be sensations that I know I want, or there's going to be sensations, I think I don't want but that I can kind of play with the edge of enjoying Ooh, maybe I like this one, too. 

You know, just like in bed, sometimes there's things that we can predictably say, like, I'm gonna really dig this. And then other times things happen that we didn't see coming. And those can turn out to be even yummier. So be willing to be surprised and be willing to practice experiencing those sensations. And even if it feels excruciating, or humiliating or uncomfortable, just practice welcoming back to and through time, you can learn to get off on a wider range of responses from him, and sensations that may come up in your work life, in relationships with children or other people. There's just a broader range of human interactions that we can really enjoy when we build that capacity. So I hope that's useful. I think that's what I've got.

Cheryl Wise Sweeney  9:42  

Fantastic. That makes so much sense.

Michele Christensen  9:44  

Thank you. Sorry to interrupt. There was one more part, right, wasn't there?  At the end? 

Cheryl Wise Sweeney  9:48  

She says I'm worried if I take the lead or take it even more than I have that the relationship will become too me-sided."

Michele Christensen  9:55  

Yeah, right? So it sounds like you have been taking the lead. You have been having a vision for the relationship, you've been reading what I write and listen to what I say and inviting your partner forward and calling him into your vision of the relationship. And here's the thing: me-sided presumes that you've only been given a vision for yourself, and that it's selfish. 

But here's what I believe: I think that we are each given kind of -  to my point earlier -  we are each given a vision or part of a vision, like the blind men with the elephant, you know, one of them's holding on to the ear, another one's holding on to the tail, and other one has a leg and they're all describing the elephant, they only have a limited vision, they don't have the whole thing. 

So in that way, it's somewhat me-sided. But if you keep listening for the highest vision of the relationship that you can imagine, and you keep conveying that to your partner, that gets actually less and less me sided over time, if you give it to him, then it becomes an organic part of your relationship. And he can contribute what he sees to that. What you're cultivating is a conversation between the two of you about what's possible for you, it won't become me sided, because you're not just acting from your ego, you're listening deeply inside yourself, then you're sharing with him, and you're endeavoring to listen deeply to him. 

So what happens to partners over time when one of the partners takes the lead in that kind of way, is it the other partner has more room for leadership in the relationship than they otherwise would. If on the other hand, you're trying to pull back trying not to share too much vision, trying to keep things 50/50, you're going to keep things where they are, now. You're going to pour your wisdom, brilliance, downloads, your vision for the relationship into a cup, the size of the cup of the vision you see from your partner right now, which might be quite small. And so now the two of you have these two little cups on the table in front of you. 

But if you've got this fountain of vision for the relationship, all kinds of things that you want for the two of you pouring through you. Let that come! And of course, have conversations in a way that's measured so you are not pointing a firehose at HIM. But hold that bigger vision, and know that you have been invited by something greater than yourself to hold that vision. And to convey it, you're the one bringing that. 

So you know, imagine that your partner is really good at making omelets. And you're great at making fruit salad, you know, so for brunch is it wrong if you make the great fruit salad? Does that mean, I'm always bringing the fruit salad to brunch with this person? Does that make it pushy of you? Are you a salad pusher now? Or should they make fruit salad next time and you make the omelets? No, it may always be your role to bring vision. And then maybe they bring practicality. Maybe they bring the planning and the action, articulation. 

So I'm reminded of a time that Kurt and I were with a couples counselor. And I was so mad because once again, I had come to the session, and I had a list of things that I wanted us to work on. And he had nothing. And I was just like, "Why do I always have to bring the vision? Why do I always have what we're going to work on? And you don't even think about it." And she stopped me right there and said, "Michele, what if you will always be the one who brings the agenda?" 

I was enraged at first. I just thought I can't be in this relationship. I can't be the one. I need a partner who will come and meet me and who will have an agenda just like I do. Who wants a lot for us. But what she helped me see in the ensuing conversation after that really painful silence where it landed that this might always be my role, was how beautiful that is. Because let's face it, I LOVE that role. I always DO have a vision. I always DO have an agenda. That's as natural as breathing for me. And maybe it is for you too.

And guess who it's not natural for? My beloved. That is not WHO he is or HOW he is. And NOW, now that I've really taken my seat in that role, he doesn't have to be. So I'm happy to bring the fruit salad and he can make omelets because he's good at that and he likes it. So that may be the case for you too. And I certainly learned it through pain. I hope you don't have to go through pain. I hope my story can help you to see it. So that's all I've got now. 

Cheryl Wise Sweeney  13:50  

It's all beautiful,

Michele Christensen  13:51  

 Yeah. 

Cheryl Wise Sweeney  13:51  

And so true. Lovely. Okay, our second listener said this...  I'm a planner, he's a go-with-the-flow-er. He's an airline pilot, and he got Emergency Paid Time Off due to covid so he isn't working.   He's doing a lot more around the house--groceries, cooking, cleaning, entertaining kids--but does it when he wants to. It feels like it's only a bonus, but not something I can depend on, because at the end of the day it's still "my responsibility" as the woman, the mom. Argh!    How can we have more predictability around this? I'm not sure it's as easy as making a schedule at the start of each week though that would help a ton. 

Michele Christensen  14:30  

Yeah, boy do I feel this. There are so many people right now and always. It sounds like it's exacerbated by the fact that she's working and he's not, right? But for a lot of people the physical labor and the mental labor around the house thinking through, "Who needs appointments where and how do we get them there? How do we call and schedule things? How do we arrange it all?  Soccer is starting, so, so and  so needs shoes, and so and so needs shin guards and all of those things. 

A lot of times, women feel like they own all those projects. And maybe they've got kind of this volunteer labor.  Like their partner is really willing to show up and be assigned tasks, but not really take ownership of the whole project. They don't have all the information, and they don't have all the responsibility. And so sometimes women tell me that they feel like their partner delivers subpar work, or like this listener said, he does it when he feels like it. And it's sort of great for him, NICE of him to have done it when he does it but since she can't totally count on him she may be feeling like,  I'll speak to you, the listener, “thank you so much for writing in, you might feel like it doesn't really take the burden off of you, right? Like you can't totally count on it.” And so you still have to be thinking about it. It doesn't ever get to leave your mind like it's completely handed off.  

To create truly egalitarian relationships, since we do have this information disparity and this mental labor disparity. Right here in the 21st century, we've got a challenge in creating egalitarian relationships. I think that most men and women in heterosexual relationships really want to have equal relationships, and sounds like your partner wants to participate fully in the parenting, in the home keeping and contribute, ESPECIALLY while you're working and he's not. And he has a different style than you do. And a problem that we have right now is that women have been socialized to do all these things and hold all these things. And so we have way more information about how to, and we have more information on our families, because we've been doing more of the work. So we've got to help transfer a lot of that information. 

And it's a lot like inside an organization. When you have tasks you've been doing and you've been making decisions on and you have all the information and the decision making rubric around it, you know how to do it, and your coworker doesn't know how. They don't know all of that stuff. And a lot of us, I think, are good at this at work. And then we come home, and we don't remember the principles that we use at work. So I want to invite you to think in those terms. If we're going to create egalitarian relationships, we're gonna have to be really intentional, and really clear eyed in how we approach this, because if we don't we wind up really pissed off and really exhausted. And neither of those feels remotely turned on, am I right? 

So here's what I want you to think about First, let him know what it would provide for you if he really owned the project. Take these one project at a time, whether that's dinner, or entertaining kids, whatever it is, break it down by project and hand them off one at a time. Don't just delegate the task anymore, really empower him to own the whole project and be really clear who's got the ball. Who's really in charge of a given project, and be sure that THAT person, whether it's you or him, knows that they've totally got it, that they own it. Utilize a consent framework, you know, really don't just say, "I need you to handle all this", and dump it on him with all of your standards, say," it would really help me (back to what it would provide for you) really helped me to have more peace of mind, more mental space for my work,  and for my own self care. If I felt like you really owned this piece. Are you willing to take this on at a level that's satisfying for me? Are you willing to take my feedback on how it's feeling for me? Can we go all the way with this? "

"Can we stay in conversation about this until it feels really good for both of us? I don't want this to be something that we're fighting about. And I think we can get to a really mutually satisfying place with it but it's going to be a process and it's going to be a little bit of a learning curve.  Are you into that? Are you willing to go there with me?" And if he does, then you can really get into it the way that you would at work. You can create really clear agreements. But more often what I see happen at home is that people create mushy agreements. And the result is frustration all around. So this is a pretty ubiquitous problem. And getting this kind of clarity is what's really required. 

But it's something that a lot of times people are reluctant to do. And the reason for that, I think is that we all come home, and we want home to be this cushy nest for us. We don't want more work. And that's understandable. And you know, as women, I tell women that they're like, well, do I want more work at home? No, I do not. But there's so much to do, and I just do it. 

So if you've got clear agreement, that you both want to be able to truly hand off a given project and then communicate the way that you would at work. Have clear expectations for timelines, be really clear on what resources are needed, what permissions, what pieces of information. Really handover a full picture of how you think about things, the rubric that guides your decisions in this project area, and the impact that it has when things are done differently, when they're done later and when they're not done at all.

And naturally communicate all of this with a lot of respect and appreciation. So when we do all of that, and I know the first time I talked to any woman about this, she goes "God, that's a lot of work." I know it is. I know it is. But it's really what it takes the women who have full partnership, full support, do this level of work. They do the communication and they do it early and often and then it really does get easier. So it's an investment. It's just like saving money in your 20s. Then you put it to work for you for the rest of your life. So that's what is required. And if we can really kind of put on our big girl britches and do that then our partners can put on their big person britches and really, truly honest are going to support us and take a load off of us. So I hope that's helpful. And of course, I always wrap up an ad hoc answer like that. And then think of something else. So I might. (she laughs)

Cheryl, does that bring up any other questions for you from either of those responses? Anything else you want to say? 

Cheryl Wise Sweeney  20:14  

No, that was just beautiful and perfect. I love being with you here today.  Thank you so much.

Michele Christensen  20:21  

Thank you so much for being here. So that's a wrap. On our first ask Michelle episode, We did it. Super fun to have you here, Cheryl. Thank you. And listeners, I hope these answers give you some useful ways forward in your own relationship. And some ways you can be helpful to friends who might face similar situations. And I really hope this is just the beginning of our conversation about this topic. The Secret Society of turned on women over at Conscious Couples’ Circle is a great place to ask your questions, and share your experiences and get more prompts to explore your own desires and priorities around sex, love and power. So come on over and join the conversation at Conscious Couples’ Circle. The links in the show notes. 

And if you've enjoyed this or other episodes, what would help me and the podcast immensely, is if you would leave a review, particularly an apple podcast, because those are a huge help in finding new listeners and growing the positive impact that these conversations can have. So please go leave a review right now, with a few words about what the show gives you. I would so appreciate it. 

And hey - have you subscribed to the podcast?  You’ll want to, so you never miss an episode!  Please go to apple Podcasts or wherever YOU listen, and hit that subscribe button, so you always get notifications of new episodes each week. That’s it for this week.   Cheryl!  It was so fun to have you with me!  Thank you so much!  Before I go, I want you to know something:  I have so many hopes and dreams for you - a vision of more pleasure, centeredness, resilience, and aliveness every day for the rest of a long and wildly ALIVE life.    I am so grateful you’ve welcomed me into your day and your relationship.  It is truly the most intimate, inspiring privilege.   I hope today’s listen has given you inspiration, clarity, and ideas for how you can discern and ask for what you desire and stay on a trajectory of continual growth and expansion in your love.    I’ll see you back here, same time next week.  Until then, I’ll see you in the Conscious Couples’ Circle - at society.lisenbury.com or you can leave me your stories and insights at 206-659-9865.   That link and number are written in the show notes, too.  And in the meantime, may the light within you illuminate the world around you.