Transcript: Safe Surrender. Asking him to lead. Erotic transcendence.
Michele Christensen 0:02
Welcome to Sex.Love.Power., the podcast that teaches powerful women how to get fully met, handled, deeply partnered with, and totally turned on in their relationships. I'm your host, Michele Christensen.
We're gonna use brain science intersectional feminism, research base relationship skills, and ancient erotic wisdom practices to create the love and sex you really want. Let's go!
I initiated a conversation with my dear friend Jessica, and I'll tell you why in a minute. But this conversation went places I didn't even anticipate because she's so brilliant, and she's so frank with her own experience. And she can tie in so many pieces of research, all I had to do was just listen and record.
I think that she brings up some really powerful connections between:
- women's brilliant minds and the difficulty that we have, then, showing up in the bedroom in the way that we want to
- the challenges that being a feminist presents when we want to create satisfying enjoyable sexual connections
- the link to possible childhood, either overt trauma or just the basic trauma of growing up female in a patriarchy
- and so many other pieces.
My guest today is Dr. Jessica Pullins. She's a licensed clinical psychologist specializing in the treatment of trauma, post traumatic stress disorder, complex PTSD and chronic pain. But that's not really why I invited her. I invited her because she's one of my best friends in this world and we've been friends since about the late 1800s, so we know each other really well and we both know that we have these brilliant neurodivergent minds and shining feminist hearts, and a profound commitment to full aliveness, so we can really GO THERE together, and that's what we want to do with all of you. So have a listen. I can't wait to hear what this brings up for you.
Jessica Pullins 2:17
This issue of wanting to be LED is something that I have been struggling with for years and years and only have recently manifested it and started actively working on it probably in the past eight months, I would say. So this is very fresh for me. For background, because I think it's important, and I think a lot of the people you work with I'm sure, we'll talk about similar things. There was a lot of sort of stigmatized sexuality in my childhood home. There was a sex addict father, there was all kinds of inappropriate boundaries around comments, there was a lot of body shaming. My mother had a lot of shame that I sort of internalized and so there was a lot at play apart from all the cultural stuff that we do to women around body image. Worth outside of beauty those things.
Then another piece of the puzzle for me is that I consider myself a feminist, and feminists are supposed to act in certain ways in the bedroom. I've been reflecting on this a lot and it's a problem that I really always located in myself, because I always had partners that would be thoughtful. That would ask what I wanted that tried their hardest to do what they thought I would want. But when they would ask it was this rapid fire process where I would be afraid to answer the question. And then I would go into a freeze response. And I actually would not be able to talk. And I wouldn't even be able to think what my answer was.
I've noticed that for years and years and years, pretty much since I've been sexual, and my thought process after the fact was always I have to get over that I have to be able to talk, I have to get out of this fear response. There's something wrong with me, this is a stupid problem. I should be able to talk about it. He's being nice. He's asked me blah, blah, blah. So I would sort of beat myself up about why are you freezing when somebody asks you what you want, right?
And then that would lead into me not having as much pleasure and sex as I wanted to and kind of retreating and the other person getting frustrated. It's very chronic problem. It was also discordant with how I am in the rest of my life, which is articulate, clear thinking, driven, confident, successful, I can lead I can plan I can visualize, I'm creative.
But when it came to this one issue, everything just completely shut down. Like there was nobody home when this was happening. I wouldn't say I was dissociated, but I was an absolute freeze response and couldn't talk. And so what has changed is in the past two years, I've been with this very loving, wonderful partner. And I was noticing the problems start to happen again, and I didn't want it to ruin our relationship or affect our relationship.
And so I basically decided to talk to him about it one day and I, instead of sort of getting down on myself, I just spoke about it from a kind of observing sense. And I said, I noticed a pattern in myself, I'm going to tell you what this pattern is. And maybe we can work on this together. And so explain the pattern of where he's asking me what I want. “Do you like this? Do you want me to do this?” He's asking all the right questions. It's the sort of consent language that we want. It's respectful. It's gentle, it's loving. And my response to that is to freeze and not be able to talk. And so that's why you will see me physically freeze. I can't answer you. I'll say no, I'll actually the only thing I can get out is “No.”
“You want me to do that?”
“No.”
“You want me to do this?”
“No.” It's the only word I can do.
And so I said, I see it starting to wither our sexuality, and I don't want that to happen. But I also have been working on this for so long, I can't fix this particular response. So the only thing I can think of is you just need to tell me you need to start telling me tell me what to do and I will follow it. And not only do I follow it actually I have an arousal response to it.
And so if we go in the bedroom, instead of you saying, "hey, should we go in the bedroom?" Say to me, "I'm going to take you into the bedroom." Totally different response in my body if you do it that way. When we get into the room, instead of saying, "Would you take your clothes off?" Say, "Take your clothes off right now."
Right? Totally different response. And I find myself, instead of feeling frozen, I find myself in more of like a receptive trance state. And it's sort of exciting instead of fearful. Now when I told him this, about this pattern and this awareness I was having I was so ashamed of it because I thought it was such a defect that I just like cried and cried and cried and just had this very, my body responds to it. I froze again when I was taught trying to talk to him about this emotional response to it.
He just listened. And he said, "Well, no, this is really good information. And I think we can figure stuff out about this." There's been a deepening of our connection because of the level of trust required from both of us to be able to do that. So it's been remarkable. It just completely like revitalized him, sexually. Completely opened me back up into feeling safe, but we also know that it is essentially play, and it applies in that arena only.
When we get outside of that arena, we are peers and we are equitable. And I contribute in these ways he contributes in these ways, and they're not gendered ways. It's really, really interesting. It's made us more balanced having this understanding of me needing to not make a single decision, except based on the sensations that I'm having. And that's it.
And it actually allows my brain to be quiet, and to only focus on sensation, and I've never had that experience before, and I don't have it anywhere else in my life, because I spend all my time thinking, thinking, thinking, thinking, thinking, right? As you know!
And the thing about it that's so remarkable to me -- It's also paradoxical -- is by being led, I'm maximized. It's crazy to me that by being led by being safely submissive by being held by being handled, I feel this, this optimization of my spirit of my self. And it just is sort of sublime. It's incredible. So that's what I have to say about that. I hope that's what you're after.
Michele Christensen 10:37
That's fantastic.
Jessica Pullins 10:39
Thank you.
Michele Christensen 10:40
Thank you. And I'm so happy for you.
Jessica Pullins 10:47
It's pretty gorgeous.
Michele Christensen 10:51
Like in a position of being at effect , rather than at cause.
Jessica Pullins 10:57
Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
Michele Christensen 10:58
Be held and lead, but also like being safe because you're clear.
Jessica Pullins 11:05
Exactly! Right. And that at any point I can say to him... and it what's amazing is in that state, I can actually talk. I can say "do that, no, please don't do that. I do like that. Mmm... That doesn't feel great."
Because I have to be able to talk in that state, I have to be able to say like, "this feels safe. This does not feel safe." Right?
Michele Christensen 11:26
The consent has to be ongoing and crystal clear.
Jessica Pullins 11:28
Exactly. crystal clear. And it's part of the contract. And so for whatever reason, and you know, I go into thinking, is it neurochemical? I don't even know but for whatever reason, in that situation, I can actually relax and I do not have a fear response. I have a kind of excitement within safety response. Which, from what I know about the nervous system, is our sort of highest level order of social connection response, right?
Michele Christensen 12:01
So we're in your PFC (prefrontal cortex) now.
Jessica Pullins 12:03
Exactly. That's exactly right.
Michele Christensen 12:06
You know, when you said I'm thinking all the time, I think there's probably a couple of women who aren't here right now who do that. (wink)
Jessica Pullins 12:18
I don't know. It might just be us.
Michele Christensen 12:21
Yeah, maybe. Maybe we'll find some other couple... three? Who think similar?
Jessica Pullins 12:29
Yeah, two to five. Yeah.
Michele Christensen 12:30
And there's nothing, short of full erotic surrender, in my experience, either, that can shut off this brain. It just needs to be stopped.
Jessica Pullins 12:42
I didn't know that was a thing. I was using my same planning, strategize, sequencing... "If I do this, then this happens then this will happen then bleb blub bleb bluh...." I was lost, intellectualizing sex. And I had no idea that this was even an option, to be honest. No idea.
I mean, I'm a psychologist, so I research things. The thing about it to me that was the most fascinating was this concept of subspace. Have you heard about that?
That's obviously some kind of neurological state that gets accessed by erotic.... What did you call it? Erotic... Something Open, openness submission, you call it you got a
Michele Christensen 14:05
Surrender.
Jessica Pullins 14:05
Thank you. Yes. So erotic surrender, there's something about not just the it's not just a function of the orgasm, there's this like... I think it's an endorphin surge or an oxytocin surge or there's some kind of chemical cocktail that floods us in that state of erotic surrender. That leads us to go into the subspace trance. And in that trance, I also can't really speak for a while. I'm sort of sub verbal, after we're done, not frozen at all. Fully relaxed, fully relaxed.
Michele Christensen 14:52
Maybe TRANSverbal!
Jessica Pullins 14:53
(Laugh) There we go! Because it feels like that. It feels trans-verbal. It feels like I don't need to talk. I'm so at peace and so, I don't know maybe it's enlightened. Maybe it's elevated, maybe it's integrated. Maybe it's just blissed out, high on endogenous drugs. I don't know!
Michele Christensen 15:24
Yeah. Satiated. Filled.
Jessica Pullins 15:25
All those things but just bliss. It's just blissful. You don't have to speak when you're in that. There's no planning. You don't want to break it, you know? So it's amazing. I didn't know it was a thing.
Michele Christensen 15:44
Gorgeous. Wow. Thank you. And the part that's like really fascinating in a very new way for me is like the beginning where you describe what it's been like for you in the past and that frozen state. It has me thinking about... I definitely have conversations with couples about her trauma responses, which are, as you said, often personal because so many women have personal.. you know, pretty big T-trauma. And then every single woman, bar none has little t trauma around sexuality by virtue of having grown up on earth. And so, but the way that assertiveness on the part of one's partner can set to safety, that trauma, it seems like a paradox, right?
Jessica Pullins 16:47
Exactly right.
Michele Christensen 16:48
"I'm going to manage you now and you're going to feel more safe than you would with the ambiguity of a more egalitarian way of relating."
Jessica Pullins 16:56
That's exactly right.
Michele Christensen 16:57
What gives?
Jessica Pullins 16:58
It's really weird. I don't understand it myself. I think that... I don't understand it. That's the only thing I can say. It's what we're supposed to do. We're supposed to be egalitarian. We're supposed to give verbal consent. Were supposed to know: "I will like it if you do this. Please do this." There's something about the transaction that turned on a trauma response for me.
Michele Christensen 16:58
Yeah. And I think that it's so complex, and there's so many contrasting expectations. But I think, for a lot of us, maybe in ways as start as you experience, and maybe for some other women, it's more subtle. A more subtle form might simply be "I am not turned on."
Jessica Pullins 17:56
Umm hmm. That's right.
Michele Christensen 17:58
"I cannot respond to this. There's no lubrication, there's no... This is not doing it for me."
Jessica Pullins 18:05
"My body's not feelin' this."
Michele Christensen 18:06
Because she has to think too much. She has to perform. She has to meet those expectations, like "what my mom said when I was four." And then "what I think a feminist is supposed to be in the bedroom." And now I'm thinking. And I'm up in my head, and no other parts of me are responding. I'm just workin' hard!
Jessica Pullins 18:26
I think that's what it is! I I think it's being up in your head. I think that's what it is. Because what's in my head is a list of the seven patients I just saw today. Every meal I have to make for myself and my daughter. How many times did the dogs pee and poop today? Did I give them their medication? I haven't done that load of laundry. Who did I forget to respond to? You know, like, I don't want "Do you like being touched that way? Yes or no?" in that list. I don't want to have to think about it.
I just want to get out of my brain with the sexual, not even just the sexual stuff, just the connecting stuff, the intimacy stuff, right? I just want to be in the feeling of it. I don't want to have to think about it. I don't have to make choices about it.
And I swear to God, it just connects to something primitive that we don't have... We have lost the name for it. Because we pretend to be civilized,
Michele Christensen 19:34
(whispers) Yeah.
Jessica Pullins 19:34
But there's some primate thing at work.
Michele Christensen 19:39
Yeah, well, there's a namee I use for it: polarity. There's something we're hungry for where like, "Right now let's play like you're the boss..."
Jessica Pullins 19:47
Right.
Michele Christensen 19:48
"And then later, we'll play like, I'm the boss." Like there will be times for both of it. But like, let's really play.
Jessica Pullins 19:54
Yeah.
Michele Christensen 19:54
Let's step outside how we are out there. And where you take out the trash and I do the dishes and then the next time vice versa. And we're both grownups doing that. In here, we're playmates.
Jessica Pullins 20:06
Right.
Michele Christensen 20:06
We are animals and you're not asking me, because we have a consent container we created together.
Jessica Pullins 20:13
Exactly.
Michele Christensen 20:15
Can we give a message to male partners who go, "Oh God, but what if I do it wrong? She's saying she doesn't want to give me guidance. She doesn't want to have that conversation about... 'Should I touch you this way? Should I touch you that way?' Like, but I'm going to screw it up."
Jessica Pullins 20:29
That's not. Mmm... that's the man getting into his head. That's the man being afraid of judgment. That's the man being afraid of being shamed and being laughed at, right? Like part of the consent container needs to be... "If I take the risk of trying to... I have the initiative to try to please you, you receive that in a kind or playful way. You do not shame me." That's part of the deal. The deal for the woman is, "If I let you lead, you do not hurt me." And the man's deal needs to be "If I lead, you do not hurt me." Right? Because we can't play if we're afraid of being hurt.
Michele Christensen 21:12
Yeah.
Jessica Pullins 21:13
I think. So it's not, "Am I gonna make a mistake?" It's, "I'm gonna try..." You know what it is in ours? He thinks about it. He's got this amazing sexual imagination. It's just incredible. And he'll think about stuff he wants to do. And he'll say, like, "I think this would be fun. I want to try it. Let's see if you like it or not."
Michele Christensen 21:37
Yeah.
Jessica Pullins 21:38
So he has confidence. Like, "I think it'll be cool. Maybe she'll like it." And that way we kind of discover new stuff. But he's even leading with his imagination. Right? Which by itself is a turn on. So if there's no like, " Eww.. that was gross!" It's like, "Oh, I really, really like that one. That one: Mmm... But let's let's do that one again!" And then he has found something that's a winner and he's happy, right? And I'm happy.
So, but on some level it requires equal vulnerability from both partners because of what you're talking about the man is afraid of messing up. The man is afraid of being judged. The man is afraid of being inadequate.
That's all him being in his head, in the same way the woman is in her head about "I don't look good. I can't say what I want. He's gonna think the skin on my stomach is too flabby." You know, all that stuff. "He's gonna think I'm ugly. He's gonna think I'm not attractive." That's all our insecurities that we bring to this stuff. If we're playing, that stuff should ideally be at least in the background. Right?
Michele Christensen 22:53
For sure.
Jessica Pullins 22:54
Except for my stomach, but you know! (Laughs)
Michele Christensen 22:57
But then you have a sense of humor about it. "I know we're playing, but just so you know: my head just totally went to the flappy flappity flap on my stomach! I'm back now."
Jessica Pullins 23:07
Exactly.
Or like part of that becomes part of the consent container too... Part of the consent is like, "I wear a bra when we do this during certain positions because if I'm not wearing a bra, I'm going to be thinking about my boobs flapping to the side too much and I won't be able to focus on what's happening. So here's how we make it safe for me." Right? So that's an example.
Michele Christensen 23:35
Oh my God, I know we're gonna do a whole show..
Jessica Pullins
On boobs?
Well, yeah! On the proactive use of lingerie as an anxiety queller.
Jessica Pullins 23:45
Totally. Totally! I know. I yes, I have thoughts on that show, too (laughs).
Michele Christensen 23:52
You know, you're my co-host, right?
Alright. So that was my conversation with Jess. The first of what will probably be many. And I hope that it's just the beginning of our conversation with you. Let me know what came up for you out of this conversation:
What are your frustrations with connecting to your body and maybe disconnecting from your head?
How do you think your trauma plays out, in the realm of desire and communication?
What do you most hope for?
What do you want to be able to ask your partner for?
Please give me a call. You can leave a voicemail at 206-659-9865 and continue our conversation. I may include your voice in a future episode. And I think that by together, exploring these sweet, tender, often hot questions, we can create more space for the kind of love and sex we really desire, in our lives and in this world. Hope you'll join me. Thanks so much for listening today.
You've been listening to Sex.Love.Power with Michele Lisenbury Christensen. It's a brand new podcast and what we really need now are listeners. So if you enjoyed this episode, please do me a huge solid favor and go to wherever you listen, especially if it's on iTunes. And leave a review. Show me those stars. And if you can just leave a thoughtful line or two about what this episode meant for you, what it brought up, what future listeners can hope to expect from the show. That'll help so much! I would really appreciate it. Thank you. Be well.